Abstract
Fretting fatigue often occurs in the interfaces between components, subjected to complex multi-axial load states and high stress gradients at the contact edge region. For the prediction of fretting fatigue crack initiation and in-depth understanding of the crack initiation mechanism, it is essential to investigate the damage mechanisms across various scales and explore the underlying scale coupling mechanisms. By introducing a power-law based scale coupling relationship, a two-scale model of fretting fatigue crack initiation life is proposed by combining macroscopic continuum damage mechanics (CDM) with microscopic crystal plastic finite element method (CPFEM). The simulation results indicate that the predicted fretting fatigue initiation life shows better accuracy than the result predicted by single-scale CDM model. In case of low stress level the rate of accumulated dissipation energy can be clearly divided into two stages with turning points, whereas it exhibits a relatively uniform damage process under high stress level. Moreover, the proposed two-scale model partly provides physical explanation for fretting fatigue crack initiation based on the information from the microscale.
Introduction
Fretting fatigue refers to the combined effect of fretting and fatigue failure when two contact surfaces are simultaneously subjected to normal stress and axial cyclic loads. In engineering practice, there are many instances of failure due to fretting fatigue (Cai et al., 2020; Chowdhury et al., 2018; Croccolo et al., 2022). Compared to plain fatigue, the greatest difference lies in that fretting fatigue occurs in the area where two components are in contact, which will be affected by the complex multi-axial load conditions of the contact area and the stress gradient at the edge of the contact area. Relevant researches have demonstrated that under fretting conditions, the fatigue limit of materials can decrease down to a quarter of that under plain fatigue conditions (Lemaitre and Desmorat, 2005).
The fretting fatigue damage process generally consists of two stages: crack initiation and crack propagation. Many researchers have conducted separate studies on crack initiation (Bhatti et al., 2018; Wang C et al., 2022) and crack propagation (Martínez et al., 2017; Pereira and Abdel Wahab, 2017). Related studies (Araújo et al., 2008; Giner et al., 2014) suggest that the crack initiation and propagation in fretting fatigue are governed by different factors. In addition, under certain conditions, the crack propagation phase is very short, making crack initiation the dominant stage in the entire fatigue process (Hills and Nowell, 1994), for some engineering components, once the crack initiates, the component needs to be replaced. Therefore, research on the initiation stage of fretting fatigue cracks is necessary, and the methods for fretting fatigue crack initiation mainly include single-scale methods based on the continuum mechanics model and multi-scale methods based on crystal plasticity.
Single-scale methods based on the macroscopic continuum medium models mainly include two types (Bhatti and Abdel Wahab, 2018), one is based on empirical laws or physical observations, mainly including the critical plane approach (Vantadori et al., 2018; Wang Y et al., 2022), fretting specific parameter approach (Ding et al., 2011), and stress invariant approach (Burns and Parry, 1964). The other is the continuum damage mechanics (CDM) method (Attarha and Sattari-Far, 2023; Hojjati-Talemi and Wahab, 2013), derived from thermodynamic principles. Fretting fatigue belong to high-cycle fatigue where no macroscopic plasticity exists, CDM based fretting fatigue models usually assume that material is in a fully elastic state of stress (Hojjati-Talemi et al., 2014; Sun et al., 2017). Nevertheless, the primary cause of fretting fatigue crack initiation is the continuous advancement of micro-plastic zones under high stress gradients, the impact of plastic effects thus cannot be overlooked. Moreover, macroscopic continuum medium theory is unable to account for the detailed physical mechanisms of microstructure deformation, thus limiting its effectiveness in describing material damage evolution.
To account for the influence of microstructural mechanism, such as the morphology and size of grains, texture and the non-uniformity of grain plastic deformation, many researchers in recent years have employed the multi-scale methods based on crystal plasticity to capture local deformations at the crystal level (Abdolvand, 2022; K-S Li et al., 2021; Roters et al., 2010; Zghal et al., 2016). Compared to macroscopic continuum medium models, crystal plasticity methods allow for the prediction of microstructural features in the model. In the realm of fatigue, Manonukul and Dunne (2004) proposed the concept of the fatigue indicator parameter (FIP) within the framework of crystal plasticity. Subsequently, methods for studying FIP have rapidly advanced, forming such as accumulated plastic slip (Sweeney et al., 2014), accumulated dissipation energy (Cao et al., 2022; Cruzado et al., 2018a; He et al., 2024) and various types of FIPs improved by multi-axial fatigue life prediction criteria (Briffod et al., 2017; Hallberg et al., 2018; Przybyla et al., 2013). In addition, multi-scale methods based on crystal plasticity are also widely used in the field of fatigue crack growth, leading to the development of many short crack growth rate models (Aslan et al., 2011; Mao et al., 2022; Sun et al., 2016), which currently struggle to account for the long crack growth stage.
However, for multi-scale models studying the initiation of fatigue cracks, due to the high computational costs, these models are typically developed using representative volume elements (RVEs). They are usually computed under conditions that differ from the actual deformations experienced by large components. This leads to challenges in accurately depicting the multi-scale aspects of deformation, microstructural evolution, and mechanical response. With respect to fretting fatigue in metal materials, some researchers have combined crystal plasticity to study the impact of microstructure on fretting fatigue. Wang et al. (2021) proposed an energy-based criterion, studying the impact of microstructure on the initiation of fretting fatigue cracks in aluminum alloys. Minaii et al. (2019) used accumulated plastic slip as a FIP, studying the impact of grain size and parameters on the crack initiation life in 316 L stainless steel. Ashton et al. (2018) proposed a strain gradient crystal plasticity method for predicting the microstructure-sensitive length effects of crack initiation in ferrite-pearlite steel. However, most of these studies are traditional hierarchical multi-scale methods (see Figure 1(a)) based on submodel techniques, which simply replace the macroscopically interested region with a crystal plastic model, without considering the scale coupling mechanism between different scales, and cannot obtain deformation responses of different scales at the same time.

(a) Hierarchical multiscale method and (b) embedded multiscale method.
In fact, neither the single macroscopic continuum medium model nor the microscopic scale model can predict both the macroscopic damage evolution and microscopic mechanism of fretting fatigue. In recent years, an embedded multi-scale method (see Figure 1(b)) has been developed in various disciplines to address complex problems that are difficult to handle at a single scale. Many researchers have made contributions to the theory and applications of embedded multiscale methods (Hu et al., 2024; Jiang et al., 2021; Krairi et al., 2016; Sun et al., 2021). These methods aim to accurately describe the interaction of material responses at different scales, thereby predicting the performance and behavior of materials at different scales. Compared to hierarchical multi-scale methods, embedded multi-scale methods require dynamically inquiring into the microscale responses of material points during each macroscopic calculation, resulting in higher precision (Fang et al., 2022; Segurado et al., 2018). However, further research is needed on how to quantitatively characterize the coupling between multiple scales and how to overcome the issue of discrepancies in predictions at different scales.
In this work, by introducing a power-law based scale coupling relationship, a two-scale model of fretting fatigue crack initiation life is proposed by combining macroscopic CDM with CPFEM. Specifically, the macroscopic damage process of fretting fatigue crack initiation in cylindrical contact is modelled using the CDM method. Then, element deformation information of interest within the macroscopic model is extracted and assigned to the RVE of microscale as the boundary conditions to compute the evolution of microstructure. Through the proposed scale coupling relationship, the reverse influence of microstructural evolution on macroscopic damage was calculated, thereby considering the multiscale interactions and predicting the initiation life of fretting fatigue cracks. To validate the accuracy of this two-scale approach, comparisons were made with experimental results from the literature (Hojjati-Talemi et al., 2014). The results indicate a good agreement between the predicted initiation life of fretting fatigue cracks and the experimental results. Finally, the failure mechanism of the microscale RVE during the fretting fatigue crack initiation process is discussed. The results provide significant insights into further understanding of the process of fretting fatigue crack initiation.
Macroscale continuum damage model
Continuum damage mechanics model of fretting fatigue
Continuum damage mechanics employs the concept of effective stress to describe the damage evolution of materials, and predicts the crack initiation according to the damage variable. According to the principles of thermodynamics (Lemaitre and Desmorat, 2005), the density of elastic strain energy of damaged isotropic materials can be defined as:
Based on the analysis of experimental results for several representative materials, the damage dissipation potential function FD should be a nonlinear function related to the strain energy release rate Y, and its expression is as follows (Lemaitre, 1987):
According to (Lemaitre, 1987),
Substitute equations (3) and (8) into equation (7), the macroscale damage evolution law can be written as:
Integrate equation (9) with respect to time within one cycle, we have:
Assuming that D within one cycle is constant, and replace the Rv with
Finite element model for fretting fatigue
The experimental data used in this work are derived from Hojjati-Talemi et al. (Hojjati-Talemi et al., 2014) to validate the effectiveness of the proposed two-scale model. The schematic diagram of the experiment setup is shown in Figure 2. Both the specimen and the fretting pad are made of AA2024-T3 alloy. The tangential force Q between the specimen and the fretting pad is generated by the spring. The normal force F and the axial stress

Schematic diagram of fretting fatigue equipment.
Fretting fatigue test data (Hojjati-Talemi et al., 2014).
The macroscopic finite element model is established by ABAQUS. Due to the symmetry of the experimental device and load, only half of the model needs to be built, as shown in Figure 3. The length of the specimen is 40 mm, the width is 5 mm, and the movement of the specimen in the direction perpendicular to its bottom is constrained. The size of the fretting pad is 10 mm × 10mm, the radius of the bottom arc is 50 mm, and the movement of the fretting pad is limited in the direction perpendicular to its side. The thickness of the specimen and the fretting pad is 4 mm. Apply a multi-point costraint (MPC) to the top of the fretting pad to avoid rotation of the fretting pad. The element type adopts linear quadrilateral reduced integration element (CPE4R), with a minimum mesh size of 0.01 mm in the contact area, which gradually increases away from the contact area. Master-slave contact algorithm is used to define the contact relationship between the fretting pad and the specimen. The circular surface of the fretting pad is defined as the main surface, and the top surface of the specimen is defined as the slave surface.

Loading and boundary conditions for the FE model of fretting fatigue specimens.
The loading process is shown in Figure 3. In the first step, contact load is applied and gradually increases to the maximum value, which remains unchanged in the following steps. In the remaining steps, axial stress and reaction force are applied to both sides of the specimen at the same time to match the cyclic loading conditions of the test. The reaction force can be calculated by the formula
Numerical method
Continuum damage mechanics provides macroscopic field variables that reflect the average damage of structural materials. In step
To reduce computational costs, it is typically assumed that damage remains constant over a certain number of cycles (
The subroutine USDFLD is used to calculate damage accumulation and stiffness reduction. To overcome the computational singularities that may occur due to the presence of (1−D) in the denominator of the equation, the damage limit is set as 0.95 instead of 1. Due to the large stress gradient in the fretting fatigue contact area, the critical distance theory method (Taylor, 2008) is used to determine the contact damage influence area to overcome the mesh dependency problem. The accuracy of this method has already been validated in our previous work (Lin and Xu, 2022). The macroscopic damage evolution law is only applied in the region indicated by Lc as shown in Figure 4. The formula for calculating the critical distance is as follows:

Selection of affected area.
The material parameters for the macroscopic continuum damage model are listed in Table 2. A comparison was made between the effects of various jump steps on the prediction accuracy of fretting fatigue crack initiation life in reference (Lin and Xu, 2022). It was discovered that when
The parameters required for CDM model (Hojjati-Talemi et al., 2014; Lemaitre and Desmorat, 2005).
Model parameters identification results.
Crystal plasticity constitutive model and parameter identification
Crystal plasticity constitutive model
To reflect microscale mechanism unable to be explicitly considered in the macroscale, the crystal plasticity model was employed to describe the mechanism of polycrystalline mechanical response, heterogeneous deformation and microstructure evolution. The phenomenological constitutive law of DAMASK (Roters et al., 2019) user material subroutine of ABAQUS was used in this work. In the crystal plasticity model, the multiplicative decomposition of the deformation gradient
The plastic slip rate
Calibration of CPFEM parameters of AA2024-T3 alloy
Crystal plasticity parameters are fitted through inverse analysis so that the simulated hysteresis curves match the experimental data under different cycle numbers. The low-cycle fatigue test and hysteretic curve of AA2024-T3 alloy were cited from (Li X et al., 2021). NEPER with a generalised Voronoi tessellation (GVT) method (Quey et al., 2011) was used to build a 3 D RVE with 400 grains. The model consists of 4913 linear hexahedral elements (C3D8), as shown in the Figure 5(a). Periodic boundary conditions (PBCs) were used to ensure that RVE deformation conformed to macroscopic behavior, as shown in the Figure 5(b). The PBCs are applied on the nodes of the RVE surfaces and satisfy the following equation constraints:

Representative volume element used for the calibration of the crystal plasticity parameters. (a) RVE morphology and (b) PBCs.
Figure 6 shows the stress-strain hysteresis curves from both experiments and simulations for the 1st, 7th, and 14th fatigue cycles. It can be seen that the simulation values are in good agreement with the experimental results. Accordingly, the crystal plasticity parameters are shown in Table 4. The elastic coefficients are taken from literature (Singh et al., 2022).

Experimental and calibrated stress-strain hysteresis curves for the crystal plasticity model.
Crystal plasticity parameters for AA2024-T3 alloy. The elastic coefficients are taken from literature (Singh et al., 2022).
Continuum damage mechanics-crystal plasticity FEM based two-scale model
Scale coupling law between CDM and CPFEM
Instead of a single scale method, this work integrates macroscopic CDM and microscopic CPFEM in a bidirectional manner to achieve the transfer of multiscale information in the model, reflecting the scale coupling mechanism of material deformation, and attempting to quantitatively characterize this mechanism. Such a two-scale model can predict both the macroscopic deformation behavior of the component and the microscopic structural evolution, thus achieving coupled predictions of multiscale responses in the fatigue crack initiation process. Figure 7 illustrates the characteristics of the two-scale model, which aims to reflect the microscopic mechanisms in macroscopic calculations of components. In order to impose the deformation response calculation results from the element with the maximum macroscopic damage to the microscale RVE, the microscale RVE is treated as an element with microstructure within the macroscale model. The boundary conditions of RVE are defined based on the theory of continuous displacement and linear interpolation in finite element method.

Schematic of the two-scale model.
Existing findings (Cruzado et al., 2018b; Korsunsky et al., 2007) indicate that dissipation energy serves as the driving force for crack initiation, showing good agreement with the experimental data of crack initiation. To avoid the change in dissipation energy being negative, the back stress should also be considered. Therefore, the accumulated dissipation energy W is selected as the microscopic indicator parameter:
In order to extract the deformation history of the macroscopic element with the maximum damage value and apply it to the microscopic RVE to calculate the change in accumulated dissipated energy, a tessellated RVE with periodic microstructure (polycrystalline grains) is adopted. There are 200 grains in the RVE as shown in the Figure 8(a). The size of RVE,

(a) Grain morphology, (b) grain size distribution, and (c) grain orientation pole figures.

Inheritance of macroscopic and microscopic boundary conditions.
Figure 10 shows the relationship between the damage value of the macroscopic damage maximum element and the maximum accumulated dissipation energy of RVE in FF1. It is worth noting that when the macroscopic damage reaches the critical value of 0.95, it will no longer increase, while the microscopic dissipation energy continues to accumulate. This will lead to certain errors in the numerical fitting process. Therefore, we choose to eliminate the data points where the damage reaches the critical value. As a result, the accumulated crystal plasticity dissipation energy was selected as the indictor parameter in the microscale, the scale coupling law with macro damage was proposed as follows:

The relationship between damage and accumulated dissipation energy for FF1.
Numerical procedures of the CDM-CPFEM based two-scale model
The overall flowchart of the proposed two-scale model is given in Figure 11. The numerical procedure can be briefly introduced as follows:

Numerical procedure of the two-scale model.
Start the two-scale prediction.
Calculate
Extract the deformation history of the region of interest and apply it to the RVE to compute the microscopic accumulated dissipation energy Wk.
Calculates the damage Dk for
Determine the calculated damage value Dk, if Dk < 0.95, bring it back to the macroscopic model and continue to execute step (b) for the next
Numerical results and discussion
Parameters of the two-scale model
Since d, W0 and p of the two-scale model are unknown model parameters, experiments (FF1, FF3, FF6, FF9) were selected to identify these parameters. All model parameters d, p and W0 are plotted as functions of shear stress

Model parameters (a) d versus shear stress
Summary of model parameters from nonlinear regression analysis.
Fretting fatigue crack initiation of AA2024-T3 alloy
Figure 13 shows the comparison between numerical simulation and experimental results of initiation life in terms of the proposed two-scale model and macroscopic CDM model (Hojjati-Talemi et al., 2014). It can be seen that all the data points predicted by the proposed two-scale method fall within the scattering band of ±50% (2 N), indicating that the two-scale method has better accuracy in the prediction of fretting fatigue crack initiation life.

Comparison between numerical simulation and experimental results of fatigue initiation life (Hojjati-Talemi et al., 2014).
To validate the independence of the critical value of maximum accumulated dissipation energy Wcrit from loading conditions, this study presents the maximum accumulated dissipation energy of the microscale RVE corresponding to all loading conditions and establish a constant value for Wcrit, as shown in the Figure 14. It is observed that the average critical value fluctuates around 7.32 MJ/m3 under different conditions, with an error range within ±50%. Consequently, Wcrit can be considered as a parameter independent of the loading conditions and reflecting the material properties.

Critical value of maximum accumulated dissipation energy Wcrit under different loading conditions.
As an illustration, Figure 15 presents the distribution of macroscopic damage and accumulated dissipation energy within the microscale RVE under different cycle numbers for the FF3 loading condition. The damage reaches its maximum at the contact boundary elements. By extracting the deformation history of these elements and applying it to the corresponding RVE, the distribution of dissipation energy can be obtained. The damage is then calculated using equation (25) and incorporated into the macroscopic model. As the number of cycles increases, damage at the contact edge gradually intensifies, and the corresponding RVE accumulated dissipation energy also increases, often occurring at or near grain boundaries. When the damage reaches 0.95, it indicates the completion of the fretting fatigue crack initiation process. The corresponding cycle number of 21 × 104 is the predicted initiation life for FF3.

Numerical simulation of FF3 damage evolution in the two-scale framework.
Moreover, Figure 16(a) and (b) show the evolution of the normal stress and shear stress on the contact surface under FF3 loading condition with the number of cycles. It can be seen that the distribution of normal stress and shear stress on the contact surface is consistent with Hertz contact theory (Hills, 1994). As the number of cycles increases, the normal stress jumps at approximately

The evolution of (a) normal contact stress, (b) shear contact stress and (c) damage on the contact surface for FF3.
In addition, Figure 17(a) shows the accumulated dissipation energy distribution map of RVE at the crack initiation of the FF3, and Figure 17(b) presents the accumulated plastic shear strain distribution map of RVE at the crack initiation of the FF3. The definition of accumulated plastic shear strain is as follows (Liu et al., 2021):

The RVE of FF3 at crack initiation: (a) accumulated dissipation energy W, (b) accumulated plastic shear strain γ and (c) von Mises stress distribution.
It can be observed that the distribution of accumulated dissipation energy and accumulated plastic shear strain is similar, with high levels appearing near the intersections and adjacent areas of grain boundaries in multiple grains. Moreover, as illustrated in Figure 17(c), the main concentration of maximum von Mises stress occurs at the intersection points of grain boundaries in multiple grains, suggesting that fatigue micro-cracks may occur in these stress concentrated areas.
Figure 18(a) illustrates the maximum accumulated dissipation energy in the RVE and the macroscopic fatigue damage for FF3, with respect to the number of loading cycles. It can be observed that both damage and accumulated dissipation energy increase gradually during the initial loading cycles and then accelerate significantly in the final stage. Notably, Figure 18(b) displays the changes in damage and accumulated dissipation energy process for specimens FF1, FF3, FF6 and FF9. Under the conditions of lower stress levels (FF1, FF3), the rate of dissipation energy can be clearly divided into two stages; the rate of accumulated dissipation energy is very slow during the macroscopic damage D < 0.5, but increases rapidly when D > 0.5. On the other hand, under conditions of higher stress levels (FF6, FF9), the rate of accumulated dissipation energy is more uniform during the damage process, with no apparent demarcation. It means that in the case of smaller load conditions, the microscopic plastic deformation is relatively small, and the dissipation energy of internal crystal defects accumulates slowly when damage is minor. But when the damage develops to a certain extent, the accumulation of material defects manifests greater plasticity, leading to a rapid increase in dissipation energy. However, under conditions of larger loads, even when the macroscopic damage is minor, the microscopic plastic deformation and stress of the internal defects in the material are larger, resulting in a relatively uniform dissipation energy speed throughout the damage process.

History of (a) accumulated dissipation energy and damage at crack initiation for FF3 and (b) the relationship between damage and normalized accumulated dissipation energy for FF1, FF3, FF6 and FF9.
In fact, fatigue crack initiation and propagation exhibit a preference for specific planes, as illustrated in Figure 19. This figure specifically marks the first activated slip system in each grain and displays the relationship between equivalent stress and accumulated dissipation energy in grains G1 to G4 within the RVE for FF3. A noticeable jump in equivalent stress and accumulated dissipation energy occurs along the grain boundary at path A-A' and B-B'. This also shows that the heterogeneity of grain orientations is a primary contributor to the accumulation of material damage and the increase in premature failure.

Relationship between equivalent stress and accumulated dissipation energy in grains G1 to G4 for FF3.
Higher stress gradients in the contact area will lead to significant gradients in macroscopic damage as well, where damage exhibits a non-uniform distribution within the macroscopic elements. Figure 20 displays the accumulated dissipation energy distribution of RVE at the crack nucleation site for FF3. It is evident that the accumulated dissipation energy is primarily concentrated in the RVE corresponding to element B and shows a distinct band-like distribution. The formation of slip bands is a microscopic indicator of plastic deformation, which occurs when dislocations within the crystal lattice move under stress. The presence of such bands is a precursor to the crack nucleation and provides clues on the initial direction that cracks may form and propagate through the material.

The accumulated dissipation energy distribution of RVE at the crack nucleation site for FF3.
Conclusion
Coupling the macroscopic continuum damage mechanics model and the microscopic crystal plasticity model, this study proposes a two-scale fatigue model and studies the crack initiation process of fretting fatigue in cylindrical contact. The main conclusions are as follows:
The proposed two-scale model considers the scale coupling mechanism and can predict the response of fretting fatigue crack initiation at different scales in a reasonable manner. The data points for predicting crack initiation life fall within the scatter band of ±50% (2N). The macroscopic damage and the microscopic accumulated energy dissipation exhibit a power-law relationship, and with the increase of cyclic loading, the damage and the accumulated dissipation energy of the material show an obvious nonlinear growth trend. In addition, the inhomogeneity of grain orientation leads to the accumulation of dissipated energy mainly concentrated near the grain boundaries. Under lower stress level conditions, the rate of accumulated dissipation energy can be clearly divided into two stages; the dissipation energy rate is slower during macroscopic damage D < 0.5, but increases rapidly when D > 0.5. Under higher stress level conditions, the rate of accumulated dissipation energy is more uniform during the damage process, without any noticeable demarcation point.
Footnotes
Declaration of conflicting interests
The author(s) declared no potential conflicts of interest with respect to the research, authorship, and/or publication of this article.
Funding
The author(s) disclosed receipt of the following financial support for the research, authorship, and/or publication of this article: This research is supported by National Natural Science Foundation of China (Program No. 52478209), Scientific Research Plan Projects of Shaanxi Education Department (Program No. 20JY032), and ‘Research on Flexible Photovoltaic Supporting Structure System’ from Xi’an Thermal Power Research Institute Co. Ltd., Huaneng Group.
Appendix 1
By simulating the deformation history of the element with the maximum damage in FF9 using RVEs with four different numbers of elements, a convergence study was conducted to ensure that the mesh density was high enough to produce a reliable mechanical response from the model. Figure 21 shows the change in accumulated dissipation energy of the RVE with increasing loading cycles under the four different meshing conditions. The changes in accumulated energy dissipation under the four meshing conditions are similar. When using
Simulations were conducted on four different sized RVEs under the strain history of the maximum damaged unit in FF9 to investigate the influence of RVE size on the simulation results. As shown in Figure 22, RVEs with four sizes of 1.5 mm × 1.5 mm, 1.2 mm × 1.2 mm, 1.0 mm × 1.0 mm, and 0.8 mm × 0.8 mm were simulated. The average grain diameter of all RVEs is the same, the grain orientations are randomly distributed, and the average number of elements per grain is constant. It can be seen from the figure that the evolution laws of the maximum accumulated dissipation energy of RVEs with different sizes are similar, but there are certain differences in their peaks, mainly due to the randomness of the grain morphology and orientation in RVEs of different sizes. Therefore, for a determined grain morphology size and orientation distribution, as long as the number of grains contained is sufficient, the influence of the RVE size can be ignored.
